A Real Live Apologetic Discussion – Join In!
The following is an excerpt of an email discussion I’ve been having with a friend, Brad. He was raised, christened and confirmed in the Uniting Church in Australia, but as an adult has rejected the faith. Below are some of the reasons he has cited for his decision to reject religion in general, and Christianity in particular.
I am a baptised, confirmed member of the Uniting Church, so its fun to play with people now that I’m an athiest.
[Regarding the comment on his Facebook profile, "All religions can't be right, so they must all be wrong"]
I placed that comment there to stimulate comments from the intelligent sector of my friends (and you are the first one to comment in over a year). I guess i put that comment there after reading Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion. An intelligent man who talked about that whole non-seqitur circle that you touched on briefly. In a nutshell. Every religion in the world is a minority. I’m going to bat on the team that is the majority – 66%. 1/3 world is christian, 28% is muslim, 20% is reincarnation, and 15% non-beliver/athiest.
The Christian Faith is then broken down into 1 billion Catholics, and the rest who make up their own rules and interpretations of the Bible, with no set of rules and regulations, only what suits them at that point of their life….eg. pro-lifers, no pill, and religious dogma. There was no mention of a Pope in the Bible, and that he is the closest person to “GOD”. You cant pick and choose, its either all or nothing, no interpretation, no exceptions, no good stories, no etc etc. New and Old Testament are either true or false, not guidelines. If you do pick and choose, who makes the guidelines….some person who saw God, or was talked to by God??? There are a bunch of crazy people over here [he is currently living in the US], eg Mormons and Joseph Smith kickin it with Moses and the like. The Church of England was created so that the King could devorce his wife…and to annoy the Pope i guess.
The Muslims follow the Old Testament vengeful God, who kills everyone and offers their daughters as prizes and kills all people in their way including mothers, children and all animals in their way. The Bible in both testaments is highly sexist, and any time a book is written there is always room for writer interpretation. eg New [Testament] was written wayyyyy wayyyy after Jesus apparent death. We all wonder why the Muslims get bad write ups for poor womans rights when their rule book is written by men thousands of years ago.
The modern Xmas celebrations were a method introduced to keep the pagans under control by the Romans before the apparent time of Jesus. The whole Jesus story is a compliation of pagans, methras, horus, krishna etc. Modern day religion will go by the wayside just like every other religion has over the span of times. (although i’m sure the creationist museum here in Kentucky belives its only been 6000 years, so who knows). Once upon a time Thor was the dude to follow, and be damned if you didn’t cause you would be dealth with harshly.
In summary, I guess I was all over the joint there, but with a whiteboard and marker it can be seen that people are inherently weak and scared and dont want to die, and are pleased by the thought of an afterlife. If they need that, its great to a certain degree. When it comes to pushing your beliefs onto people is where I stop. Anyone can believe in anything they want, as long as it doesn’t affect me. If only we as a world would put as much energy into really doing “God’s work”, the Middle East would be prosporous, America would be hated less, everyone would have an “equal share” and everything would be great…….except that even without “God” the world is filled with greed and hatred, so that would never happen. It is human nature to steal, kill and get ahead on varying degrees, some which are accepted and some which aren’t accepted in society.
As a scientist, i just dont see the evidence for religion. I do have fun reading and talking about it though.
One thing that is still strong is the fact that all religions across the whole world are young compared to the old ones, and religious over time have risen and died with global historical powers. There are continuous splinter groups forming from every religion. New religions grow power with numbers and popularity eg Mormonism, Scientology and the like. Islam is on the rise and will soon be higher than Christianity, yet globally by 1st world countries there is much hatred and dislike of people of that faith, due to poor journalism i’m sure.
Religion as i said is a popular crutch in times of need when there feels like there is nothing else. I feel that if you are strong in character and are surrounded with a supportive family/friends religion is not necessary.
If everyone were born on a different continent, they would be fighting for a different religion. It’s weird how your faith is determined on a large scale by your upbringing, rather than by rational thought.
My last one – Proof. Everyone knows there is no such thing as magic, yet they believe in miracles. Magic = miracles. Every single part of every single day, people want proof. prove to me I can eat this and I’m not going to die. Prove to me that this car is going to work etc etc. Science has doubled life expectancy in the past 50 years. Yet people will go and fight for something that has no proof. Prove to me that God exists…..ahhhh ya cant (and dont try to say that science is not the right measure to prove God, I’ve heard that one). When that day occurs that one of the religions can be proved to the level that we crave everything else to be proved, I will stand up and say…yes I was wrong. As a betting man, I would go with No – 1 billion to 1.
Just because we dont understand it, doesn’t make it a miracle. Why do people turn to God when they don’t understand how things work or happen, and just say, well he must have done it, cause I dont know any other way.
So obviously Brad has brought up a great many points for discussion. I encourage people to further discussion on some of these points.
Jeffery Graff
on January 5th, 2010
I have not read “The God Delusion” but I have heard Dr. Dawkins debate the points of the book. I am going to assume he wrote far better than he debated.
You wrote, “Every religion in the world is a minority. ” This was followed by some statistics which are moderately accurate but woefully irrelevant. Truth is truth no matter how many people believe it so an argumentum ad populum is meaningless.
This is followed by a number of points I find also irrelevant. Let us suppose the Pope is nobody in particular, that the Bible is false, and everything else. This doesn’t even begin to demonstrate that God doesn’t exist. If all religious followers are wrong, there may yet be a God.
You make the point, “people are inherently weak and scared and dont want to die, and are pleased by the thought of an afterlife.” That may be true for some, but let me counter with this; I could say that atheists are weak and don’t want to have to face a judgment so they simply deny the judge and deny an afterlife so they can do whatever they want without fear of real consequences. Isn’t that just as reasonable as what you propose?
You wrote “As a scientist, i just dont see the evidence for religion.” Other scientists do see evidence for God. So I guess two people can look at the same data and see different things. Hey, I wonder if this means that science is all wrong. No, I don’t think that way, but if we carried your logic against religion into science there’d be difficulties. I mean, the scientists guiding us in areas of nutrition change their tune every couple of weeks.
Many of the other points you make are in the same catagory as things I’ve already said, but I want to address this statement. “Everyone knows there is no such thing as magic, yet they believe in miracles.” You then unravel this statement by saying that magic = miracles. I suspect what you’re talking about here is the allegedly supernatural – I say “allegedly supernatural” because, if you are truly a scientist, you know that we do not know all of what is natural and, therefore, cannot know what is natural and what is “supernatural.” Some elements of quantum theory look supernatural to me.
As an atheist, however, you have to believe that life began somehow in the universe, but a scientist would hold to the law of biogenesis – that all life comes from living things. So you must either believe that life always existed (and that doesn’t seem to fit the current models) or you must believe in abiogenesis (which also seems to violate laws of nature). Which one is it, friend? Which bit of “magic” do you hold to?
Now you can revert to saying you don’t know, but if you are satisfied that this is a reasonable answer, let me quote Dr. Dawkins on this.
“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” – Richard Dawkins
Are you satisfied with not knowing? Then welcome to the world of religion. Are you unsatisfied with the fact that science has no answer for this? Then perhaps you need to realize that science doesn’t have all the answers.
Scott Doty
on January 5th, 2010
“Then perhaps you need to realize that science doesn’t have all the answers.”
Semantics problems here with “science” and “answers”.
“Science” is a process that helps find out truth. If something is knowable, this process can help us figure out if it is truthful by devising experiments that are as free from bias as humanly possible. We need this because humans are notoriously prone to bias and errors in their thinking. By taking human fallibility out of the observation & testing loop as much as possible, we end up with stronger ideas about what is truth.
That’s the scientific dogma, anyway — but in some cases, humans can’t be
taken out of the loop…or at least, not yet.
My current favorite example is determining the sentience of another human being…a matter that ultimately relies on the “unscientific” idea of shared experience. It goes something like this.
“Since I am sentient, and I act (more or less) like other beings that look like me, I assume they are sentient, too.” Cue here, philosophical ideas such as “p-zeds”, and other arguments for solipsism. But we take it on a bit of faith that someone
who acts sentient is most likely sentient.
But there is no place for such an unmeasurable shared experience in modern epistemology…so either it is flawed, or one (dogmatically) takes the strict scientific path of solipsism.
Brad, are you a solipsist?
Personally, I’m not: I see humans doing what humans do, and perceive other minds in their own bodies.
I also see how the universe works, and perceive a nebulous “something” there. Not some Hellenic idea of a god with a flowing white beard, but instead, a more modern “ultimate ground of being”: a source from which certain experiences seem to have come from. And since I am not alone in apprehending these spiritual experiences, I have to conclude that such perceptions are part of our human condition (at the very least), and may be more than just cognitive errors.
And as a scientist, you can hopefully see how such things can manifest in science itself, such as teleologic explanations of biological structures…but whether you accept that, or prefer the teleonomic, one thing is clear: complex biological structures do not evolve unless they have survival value to the species in question.
So — at least in the past — the “God part of the brain” is a survival trait…and finding out _why_ that would be so would certainly be in the purview of science, wouldn’t you think?
Bruno Tomadon
on January 5th, 2010
“Just because we dont understand it, doesn’t make it a miracle. Why do people turn to God when they don’t understand how things work or happen, and just say, well he must have done it, cause I dont know any other way.”
Water doesn’t turn to wine instantaneously by natural means and women don’t become pregnant without being inseminated. It doesn’t take modern science to understand this -the ancients knew it as well. This means that when Jesus turned water into wine it was regarded as miracle because they understood how things normally work. Similarly, Mary’s husband-to-be, as would be expected, assumed that she had been sleeping around until he was convinced that a miracle had occurred.
Big Bang cosmology tells us that space-time and matter/energy all had a beginning about 13.7 billion years ago. We also understand that anything that begins to exist had a cause. The cause of the universe must therefore transcend the universe and the stuff that it’s composed of. I would suggest that the best candidate for the cause of the universe is God.
In all the examples I’ve given the reasoning to a miracle is based on what we know about natural processes.
Scott Doty
on January 5th, 2010
Hi Bruno,
The provenance of the reports of the miracles that you posit remains disputed.
When working within an apologetic framework, we would do better to remain within the bounds of a rational philosophy. E.g.: When you present your miracles as a “given”, you’ve introduced a kind of circular reasoning that will not appeal to those who would prefer rational discourse.
Brad
on January 6th, 2010
Well, thank you all for the review of my chatter. As i wrote it in multiple parts it didn’t really come out the way i had intended.
I am not a Solopsist, had to look that word up, quite intersting concept.
Jeff – As an atheist i am not weak, i just dont walk around everyday God fearing and afriad of judgement. If i am speeding in a car, i’m afriad of getting pulled up by the cops. I’m not sitting in my bedroom afraid of the boogieman, since the boogie man doesn’t exist and the cop does. Since i am a person of high morals i am not afraid of judgement, i nothing it, since there are no tangible parameters to aim for, only what is written in a book by a bunch of guys, who apparently talked to god.
Why is it that all these guys “talked to god”, and we think that its gospel. If anyone hears voices, or kills someone because god told them to, we lock em up for being crazy and admisiter drugs for psychological problems.
Jeff you found my points irrelvant, yet you didn’t give a proper answer for the hard one, you only chose the easy ones. The numbers i put there was to put into perspective the major groups in the world. When it boils down to it, it doesn’t matter which religion you are, 66% of the world thinks completely different, yet we charge down the path from birth who is right, go to war, and both say we are fighting with god on our side. wtf.
I think what would be the best path of action is completely forget the notion of religion due to religious dogma. There is not a single religion out there that 100% follows the bilbe, they all do their own little quirks and interpretations to suit their select population or followers. Plus i repeat above, if a christian were born in the middle east he/she would now be a muslim.
Is there proof……no. So just becaue there isn’t proof, doesn’t justify that god exists. until there is proof, why dont we all have a beer, help eachother out, eat some nice food, stop bombing the hell out of eachother, and enjoy the 70 odd years that we have on this beatiful earth before we become worm food.
rogermorris
on January 6th, 2010
Brad,
I think you’ll find that ‘fear of God’s judgment’ or ‘fear of death’ is not a prominent reason why people believe in God. This ‘fear of consequences’ motivation is more of a caricature. Most Christians would point to more of a combination of rational reasoning towards a belief in God, combined with an element of a subjective/experiential thrown in. The Christian worldview is not the irrational, blind faith position that people like Dawkins and Hitchens would have everyone believe. The point of this blog is to demonstrate the rationality and reasonableness of Christian theism.
I think what Jeff was highlighting is exactly what I have also said. The popularity of a belief is by no means reflective of the accuracy of the belief. Centuries ago, popular belief was that the earth was flat or that the earth was the centre of the universe. Of course these popular beliefs were later proven to be incorrect. In the past, it was popular belief that an over-emotional woman was suffering from her uterus roaming around inside her body (Latin for uterus is ‘Hyster” – hence the word “Hysterical”). Obviously this popular belief has since been shown to be incorrect. So popularity of a belief in no way confirms its accuracy. It is quite possible that the truth in any matter is actually held only by a minority. Jesus himself alluded to this when he said:
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.” (Matthew 7:13)
Again, the apparent failure and inconsistency of Christian groups, denominations and individuals to live according to the teachings of Jesus, Paul and the other apostles in no way reflects on the possibly truth of the teaching. It only relfects the difficulty of fallen humans to consistently and authentically live out the Christian worldview and teachings.
Your requirement for infallible “proof” of the existence of God prior to belief is a common ploy of the philosophical empiricist. This reflects a distorted understanding of epistemology – how we know things. Ironically, I suspect that there are a great many things in your day-to-day life that you believe without the requirement for irrefutable proof. I suspect that in many things you are prepared to trust in what you don’t or can’t know, because of the things you already know – a good working definition of ‘faith’. So you are apparently being selective in the things that you will refuse to believe in without “proof”.
If you subscribe to a purely materialist or naturalist philosophy of existence, what then of more transcendent experiences such as love? Is your love for your wife and family purely a function of neuronal impulses and neurotransmitters?
Bruno Tomadon
on January 6th, 2010
Scott, I was making the point that the flow of reason is not “we don’t understand P therefore God” but “natural processes are inadequate to explain P therefore God”.
Even if the miracle stories were invented it’s clear the author understood the reasoning I’ve outlined. It’s a modern urban legend to claim that God is only an option when we don’t understand something.
I also included an example of the same type of reasoning in relation to the Big Bang because I’m aware that not all people will accept the testimony of Scripture.
Bruno Tomadon
on January 6th, 2010
“Religion as i said is a popular crutch in times of need when there feels like there is nothing else. I feel that if you are strong in character and are surrounded with a supportive family/friends religion is not necessary.”
I don’t think this goes far enough. The crutch metaphor doesn’t fully describe our dependency on God. Trust in Christ is more akin to our natural dependency on food, water and air.
Brad
on January 21st, 2010
Guys,
well you have probably decided to write somewhere else. I thought i’d give you an example of what happens when religion causes people to act completely uncivilised. This doesn’t just happen in third world countries. All over the world people are fighting for their God. The US, Australia, France, The Middle East. They draw strength from the vengeful Old Testament where everyone human and livestock must be killed if they dont believe.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=1001695
Is this really something that we should be supporting on any level???? Why this constant blind support of how cool my imaginary friend is compared to your imaginary friend.
Instead of killing, shouldn’t we all get along. As a race we are forever doomed due to our complete lack of common sense. Unfortunately common sense isn’t that common.
rogermorris
on January 22nd, 2010
Citing religious violence like this is a common tactic used by Dawkins, Hitchens and the New Atheists, as evidence that all religion is evil and causes nothing by strife, war and hatred. Their logic is that if we could simply do away with all religion, then all of this unpleasantness would simply go away.
A few points of reality here:
1. Violence like this is rarely just religious, but also political, tribal, ethnic and economic. So doing away with religion leaves all of the other causes of this kind of violence. Result – the violence would continue, but with other excuses. The problem is not religion. The problem is human nature, greed, power, money, domination, racism, sexism, intolerance and fanaticism within any idealogy.
2. For the above reasons, the secular/areligious utopia so wished for by the New Atheists (and John Lennon) is a complete myth.
3. In clashes between Christians and Muslims in these kind of countries, history will indicate that it is usually the Muslims who are militantly intolerant and vilifying the Christian population. Muslim to Christian violence is far more common than the reverse. Of course this in no way excuses Christians involved in this kind of violence – clearly in disobedience to Christian teaching.
4. The claim that religion is the greatest cause of death and suffering is also a fallacing. Look at the numbers – more people have died at the hands of atheist regimes such as Stalinest USSR, Maoist China, Communist Eastern bloc countries, Pol Pot’s Cambodia. See below:
http://www.faithinterface.com.au/apologetics/does-religion-cause-violence
http://www.faithinterface.com.au/apologetics/religion-the-cause-of-violence-in-northern-ireland
http://www.faithinterface.com.au/general/atheist-delusions-reframing-human-history
http://www.faithinterface.com.au/apologetics/longing-for-tolerance
Bruno Tomadon
on January 22nd, 2010
From the BBC news report at: http://bit.ly/6eeKbL
It looks like this is not a religious war after all.
“The city is in Nigeria’s volatile Middle Belt – between the mainly Muslim north and the south where the majority is Christian or follow traditional religions.
Correspondents say such clashes in Nigeria are often blamed on sectarianism.
However, poverty and access to resources such as land often lie at the root of the violence.”
Martin Smith
on January 22nd, 2010
Brad I must agree with Roger that ‘fear of God’ and ‘fear of death’ as reason for religion is a caricature that in my experience is raised by critics rather than those claiming relationship with the living God. My personal story involved an acceptance of death as a consequence of living the life that I wanted to live before I gave my heart to Christ. This is not a boast but rather how it is, even now fear of death. In fact things were pretty great. I wish God was my crutch. Unfortunately because I gave my life to God because I decided it was the right thing to do, I believe a legacy of stuborness and rebelliousness continues to be apart of my story. Of this I often find myself disciplined and God willing constantly growing in my journey.
Also to fear God is to have a reverent respect. For me words like awesomeness, wonder, majestic, even all powerful are inadequate to describe God. They give us a means to express the praise in our heart’s but they are never quite sufficient to describe God. For me and humans in general God is indescribable and overwhelming for us to express fully. Yet this all powerful, all knowing, all loving God choose to reconcile creation from the fall shows the goodness of God.
If you are in the field of scientific inquiry I thank God for the particular giftings that he has entrusted to you. I thank God for creation and that we are able to use the scientific method and that we have the ability to conduct scientific inquiry into how it functions. The beauty of God’s creation once again is beyond words for me to describe. Scientific inquiry is brilliant at discovering the relationship between reality but it is not useful at discovering the relationship between us and reality.
Why discuss miracles, God is an invisible friend right?
The Christmas celebrations, praise God for it’s origins! To take a festival that is culturally salient, yet the meaning behind it no longer holds significance; to this I commit this all to the Glory of God.
You want to talk about ‘religion’ then you need to be more specific, its too meaning laden to be useful in a discussion in my experience. For instance a useful definition that I have found for being religious is doing something and not understanding the reason for doing it.
To the violence in Nigeria, our fallenness is best put by St. Augustine “Every man wants peace; it just so happens to be his own peace.” Myself I am thankful that I live in a society in which I can have a disdainful attitude towards such actions.
I think the skeptical question ‘well whose to say’ is a question that I have asked myself. I prayed and Jesus answered me. I also only prayed 3 prayers for myself in the next 6 months I was that independent. They too were all answered. On all occasions much to my surprise. That’s a gigantic summary, but the more Christlike I become the more human I become.
Brad I have some questions for you.
One what does it mean to be human?
Two why are you discussing this out of interest?
Look forward to reading your response.
Brad
on February 4th, 2010
Firstly sorry i didn’t reply straight away, my computer was being fixed, and due to your persuasive prose(martin) i was busy ouside converting heathens. lol
Roger, i outlined earlier that even without religion, we would be killing eachother for all the reasons that i stated and you added. I never stated that it would go away, and i completely know about all the deaths that have occured for non-religious reasons. i also never said it was the greatest. I just dont get why we need to kill for our imaginary friend (as you said, against the teachings of the bible.) So i regard the rest of your reply it was inaccuract to what i was trying to make.
Secondly….Roger you are a christen Yes??? Well since we are using numbers here, you do realise that there are almost the same number of Muslim as there are Christians, and that the Mulsim faith is on the increase??? So for you to say that :
“Muslim to Christian violence is far more common than the reverse.”
Agree to disagree on that one buddy, cause all those muslims out there would say the opposite. In this case, what came first the chicken or the egg. Christians striking Muslims or the other way around???? No one wins in a war.
Bruno – This specific clash in the article i read was about a place or worship being built, not in the societal norm. I understand that the majority of the wars out there are based on resources. Name a single war in the history of man that isn’t???? I appreciate the article that you found, it gives an alternate perpective to the clashes. Non the less, religious clashes still occur (if not this one) everywhere, and why??? I could have sited a more worthy article. My own downfall there. Sorry and thank you.
Martin – So what to say here. I write this because religious folk have had the limelight long enough. Its time for the non-belivers to stand up and be counted. Too long has society made those who dont believe be rediculed. Too long has there been too much family pressure to tow the religious line. The more i speak out, the easier it is for more to do the same. Question everything, dont just follow like a sheep.
What does is mean to be human – Well since we are just animals with a higher level of mental complexity, i would say it is to survive, reproduce and die. JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE!!!! You say that you feel more and more human everyday……so you started out as a different animal, or some kind of hybrid. YOU WILL ALWAYS BE HUMAN. Try this…maybe you are at peace with yourself, and life is nicer as a human. Its impossible to feel more human…..Do all animals go to heaven….or just us considering we have a higher level of perceived metal capacity.
I have questions for you my friend. What happened to you??? It sounds like you are a New Born or some sort. Obviously you went through some kind of stressfull situation, abuse, drugs/alcohol, sexual abuse etc. Stressfull situations will have you searching for answers my friend, why go somewhere in the time of need when maybe needed some kind of mental therapy to resolve you issues, and “the life you wanted to live” before you gave yourself to god.
So you thank GOD that he helped me a good scientist. WRONG. i did all the freakin work, no-one else. Me. so if there is anyone to thank thats ME buddy. If you have such a low self esteem that you need to thank your imaginary friend…i again say….get help.
So how about this, you hear voices, you have a relationship with a dead dude with a dead son. might i say again….seek help. People who hear voices are generally diagnosed with skitzophrenia. People over time have accounted all their great deeds to God speaking to them, and dispelled all those who had god speak to them and tell them to kill people. We call those people crazy people and send them to psych wards, and diagnose them with skitzophrenia. How and why you might ask. in the old testament god told people to kill all over the place. so why is that bad now.
You had 3 prayers answered…..really…what were they…..i really dont care, since i wont be reading or writing on this blog again, due to complete boredom with the issue so i leave you with this.
Did you win the lotto with those prayers??? No – more than likely you prayed for events that were more or less in your control and you achieved them by yourself or assisted in them. eg. you had a hard test to do, so you studied you arse off. Bam, you got a good grade…..oh how suprising.
People see and hear what they want to hear, not what is actually seen or heard.
FAITH IS BLIND FOR A REASON…..YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BACK IT UP EXCEPT PERSUASION.
Enjoy.
p.s if i have offended anyone, please feel free to eat some cement, and harden up. religion and politics are fun topics aren’t they???
rogermorris
on February 5th, 2010
You’ll have to try harder than that to offend us Brad!!
Brad
on February 20th, 2010
Another reason why the catholic church is full of wack jobs. YOU HAVE TO PERFORM A MIRACLE AFTER YOU ARE DEAD PEOPLES!!!!! Prove how that is possible……if this website is about science, phyilosophy and christian faith, then logically explain this one. Hello Pope, yeah man, this is God, coudl you go ahead and give a sainthood to a dead person for me. It will make em real proud of their lifes work. Yep…yep….oh and Pope, dont forget we have a bbq this weekend. Bring some finger food. We start around 3pm till late. BYO alcohol.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=1014573
Nomination. After a person dies, if he or she has lived a life of virtue according to the teachings of God and has helped others to realize those teachings, people will nominate him to become a saint.
Investigation. The nomination will be taken up by the local bishop who will begin investigation of the life lived by the person, including what he has done and the writings he has produced. This usually takes place five years after the person has died, in order to have a more objective look at the life of the person, without emotional excitement affecting anyone’s judgment. Witnesses will be called to speak in front of a tribunal on how they have seen that person live out the Christian virtues, if they are to be considered heroic enough to be called a saint. At this point in time, the person nominated will be called by the title of Servant of God.
The Congregation. After the local investigation, the information is forwarded to The Congregation for the Causes of Saints, whicih is in charge of discussing the given information. This involves a Roman postulator who will summarize the details given by the local bishop. They will discuss this intensively twice a month until they come to a conclusion. If it is a favorable one, then they will proceed to create the decree that will be announced to the public that this person has passed the initial approval process to become a saint.
Beatification. This requires that there should be a miracle to happen under the name of the Servant of God after his death. Examples of these are praying to the Servant of God during times of illness and being healed or seeing that person in a dream, wherein a message is conveyed or healing is conferred. When this has been testified to and the miracle associated with the heroic virtue, the Servant of God shall then be entitled as the Blessed.
Canonization. This requires a second miracle to happen after the person has received the title of Blessed. When a miracle happens in the name of the Blessed, when it has been attested to and approved by the Holy Father, then the canonization process can be finished. When the canonization process is complete, that is the time that the person will receive the title of Saint.
Brad
on February 20th, 2010
SHE’S BEEN DEAD FOR OVER 100 YEARS!!!!!
She sounds like she did some very good work, and she should be recognised, i dont doubt that. But really, if you can honestly say this is a legit practice, then you should also be in the wack pile.
rogermorris
on February 21st, 2010
Brad, this is an argument from silence for those of us who are Protestant and reject the unbiblical doctrines and practices of Roman Catholicism.