This is the sort of thinking that causes well-intentioned creationists to miss the boat. If they dealt with biology rather than obsessing over the philosophical or religious implications of it, they would figure out that they are tilting at windmills to deny the science.
Trouble is smijer, that neither side of the creation/evolution debate deal with the raw scientific data without interpreting in some way, and filtering the data through their own presuppositions and worldview. Everyone has a philosophy of science just as they have a broader philosophy of life – whether they know it (or admit it) or not. The brute scientific facts are neutral and are then filtered and interpreted by both sides, according to their presuppositions. You are not being honest if you deny that you use raw scientific data to support your own presuppositions.
Pure science and the Christian faith are not at odds. I, like countless other Christians who have been schooled in the biological sciences, are happy to accept issues of brute scientific fact – I accept current Big Bang cosmology, I accept current views on the age of the universe and the age of the earth. I accept the fossil record on face value. I would even go so far as to say that I am happy to accept natural selection processes within a species group as a response over time to environmental pressures (I see this all the time with things in my work like development of antibiotic resistance in bacterial populations).
But I don’t accept that the only interpretation of scientific facts in biology points towards blind macroevolutionary processes via natural selection leading to new species. That is ‘leap of faith’ in extrapolation of the scientific data, a result of the assumption that atheistic naturalism is necessarily the default position for all rational thinkers. I can see much in the brute facts of science that reflects purposeful design and fine-tuning.
So, it stands I think that the creation/evolution debate is a matter of philosophy of science, rather than the brute facts of science per se.
smijer on April 30th, 2009
By way of response, let me just quote from a Christian candidate for a Texas district school board who I just read about yesterday (link). I stress that he is Christian and conservative to point out that his philosophical foundation is non-naturalistic and as different from my own as it is possible to get… yet he is absolutely correct when he says: The older and deeper places of the Earth hold the remains of primitive creatures which increase in variety and complexity as the hand of geological time winds forward. The DNA of our very bodies tells the history (within mutations of long silenced genes and the remnants of ancient viral intrusions) of our separation by degrees from other creatures of the Earth in a common descent. Imposing a false ambiguity on these facts makes mockery of the precious drops of knowledge which mankind has slowly wrung out of the natural world. It is pure scientific retreat, not progress.
In other words, yes – there are philosophical reasons for searching to avoid the otherwise unavoidable conclusion of universal common descent, but that doesn’t mean that assent to them is necessarily only philosophical. Some philosophy of science is inescapable if we are to do it, but the same philosophy of science that supports the laws of motion, whether classically derived or more accurately through quantum mechanics and relativity, leads inexorably to acceptance of universal common descent.
Put yet another way, the creation / evolution debate is a matter of philosophy of religion against the brute facts of science per se.
Sorry smijer, I don’t agree with your fideistic assumptions.
i) The Texas fellow you quote seems to hold one of at least three viewpoints within theists regarding how to interpret scientific data and fossil records. At best he may be a theistic evolutionist (which I’ve already indicated to be inconsistent and syncretistic). At worst he is confused and has a muddled, inconsistent and irrational worldview. He may nominally identify as Christian but have swallowed (by peer group osmotic pressure) what he has been brainwashed to believe – that Darwinian evolution is the default interpretation of current scientific data. Either way, in my mind, his worldview seems inconsistent, syncretistic and irrational.
In any case observe similarities in DNA and increasing complexities of DNA within gradually increasingly complex species does not at all automatically make the cause of this Darwinian evolutionary processes, driven by blind natural selection. It can just as easily be explained by intelligent design and efficiency, utilising functional basic DNA templates which are then altered in various manners to allow the development and creation of increasingly complex species. It makes a great amount of sense to use a basic successful design concept template and vary it minimally as required to produce the desired variability within species. Again it all comes down to presuppositions and how observed scientific data is interprete. In any case, Darwinianism still doesn’t adequately explain the origins of DNA itself de novo. Original researchers into the concept of ‘Biochemical evolution’ where DNA supposedly self-organised spontaneously from the random protein broth, have doubted and rejected their own original ideas (Kenyon, etc).
ii) “There are philosophical reasons for searching to avoid the otherwise unavoidable conclusion of universal common descent”
Smijer, it could be argued that you have just as strong philosophical motivations for searching to avoid the necessary metaphysical implications of considering the possibility that naturalism and physicalism is not the only explanation for what is observed in biology and cosmology. I expect you would want to avoid like the plague, any suggestion of a designer who transends his creation, space and time – that would mean you would have to reconsider your investment in atheistic naturalism and consider the possibility of a transcendent creator (and the risk that the Being in question is the God of the Bible). Cuts both ways my friend.
iii) “But the same philosophy of science that supports the laws of motion, whether classically derived or more accurately through quantum mechanics and relativity, leads inexorably to acceptance of universal common descent”.
Smijer, another ‘quantum leap’ of faith on your part. Despite propaganda claiming universal acceptance of Darwinian evolution as the default position for all thinkers, there are still chasms of data deficiency which a naturalist must leap over with presupposition and blind assumption to reach this conclusion. I maintain, this is still only one of a number of possible interpretations of the data.
smijer on April 30th, 2009
First and most vehemently, I must disagree with your assessment of Dr. Walker’s positions. I do not know him personally, but he is a regular denizen of a socially conservative web-site, professes Christianity and social conservatism – not a mixture many people would call “nominal” Christianity (nor is that of Francis Collins or Karl Giberson). His clear, concise, and eloquent statement of his beliefs mark them as his own, arrived at through honest scientific investigation – they do not bear the hallmarks of having been borrowed under “peer pressure”, but rather those of strong conviction. Perhaps his worldview is inconsistent, syncretistic, and irrational. He would be the rare human being if he possessed a wholly consistent and homogeneous worldview. That is neither here nor there. The question is whether a rational epistemology of nature, whether or not it is paired with an epistemology of revealed truth, is consistent with the empirical methods of discovery and the deductive and inductive methods of interpretation that yield the modern edifice of evolutionary thought.
Certainly his summary of the lines of evidence is incomplete and doesn’t lead necessarily to the greater conclusions of which we are certain – he is writing an eloquent exposition on his position, not a textbook on 150 years of research in a variety of fields of biology and paleontology.
Smijer, it could be argued that you have just as strong philosophical motivations for searching to avoid the necessary metaphysical implications of considering the possibility that naturalism and physicalism is not the only explanation for what is observed in biology and cosmology.
Perhaps it could be… but it isn’t about me, and my philosophical motivations. I do hold some philosphical positions that make a program rooted in spiritualistic assumptions problematic, but I won’t bore you with them. The philosophical underpinnings of science are the same whether discussing evolution, relativity, the age of the earh, or the germ theory of disease. It is these philosophical underpinnings, and not grand “world views” which are essential. To avoid evolution, you must discount them.
You say that this is a ‘quantum’ leap on my part… A friendly riposte – I don’t think ‘quantum’ is used correctly there. In fact it is not. The only “interpretations” that are consistent with *all* the evidence are those of common descent on the one hand, and that a designer created life in order to fulfill the empirical demands of common descent on every level at which we are capable of looking at the evidence. In other words, our interpretive options, if we are to deal with all of the evidence, are the predictive and falsifiable option of common descent by evolution or the Omphalos Hypothesis that God designed life to fool us into thinking it was involved.
Sure, we can invoke “common design” to explain common DNA, but this hypothesis suffers from flaws:
1) it is post-hoc. We find that cytochrome c, for instance can be replaced across distantly related species. There is no reason to *expect* that the cytochrome c sequence will follow a phylogenetic pattern matching the phylogenetic tree known from the fossil record, modern morphology, biogeography, paleobiogeography, and all the rest. We might just as reasonably expect that God would use cytochrome C more similar between yeast and bacterium as between yeast and human. To explain the similarities as common design is simply an after the fact plea. Evolution, on the other hand predicts and demands that yeast and humans share a more similar molecular sequence.
2) It requires further post-hoc explanations, often more tenuous ones, to explain certain of the data. While God might have designed human and chimpanzee DNA similarly for similar purposes, it does not stand to reason that God would design a GULO pseudogene similar to all non-simian mammals active GULO gene (essential for synthesizing ascorbic acid), and design it to be held in common by only simian primates, with deviations falling along the otherwise established phylogenetic relationships between those simian primates. Common descent predicts the genetic data with little need for recourse to post-hoc explanations.
3) Each independent line of evidence points to common descent by evolution. Whether we are looking at molecular or DNA evidence, the bone structure of a whale’s fin compared to a terrestrial mammal’s hand and a bat’s wing, the fossil record that finds remains of organisms with the skeletal features of modern whales and limbs for walking terrestrially, the distribution of Koalas and Kangaroos that could thrive in similar habits worldwide only in Australia, patterns of antibiotic resistance in parasitic bacteria, or any of a host of other data points, we find predictions of common descent satisfied by the data, and we find that we are able to explain numerous and disparate pieces of data economically and elegantly under a single theory.
The Design hypothesis, on the other hand, struggles to catch up – having to conform data to fit the best you are able with across as many categories as you are able, when the fit already proceeds organically and naturally from evolution.
In other words – I cannot put it more succinctly than Dr. Walker: “Imposing a false ambiguity on these facts makes mockery of the precious drops of knowledge which mankind has slowly wrung out of the natural world.”
smijer on April 30th, 2009
Unfortunately, I didn’t proof-read the above sufficiently before posting, but I hope you can get the meaning.
I did leave out one other very important point… that is the fact that evolution has a mechanism firmly known to work – it is observed. We know through observation one and only one method of the production of genetic material – that is through genetic reproduction, and we observe it ubiquitously and in uncountable quantities. We know through observation one source of genetic similarity and variability: within a family, within a population, within a species, and within a genus – that is through evolution. We see it ubiquitously and in uncountable quantities. “Design” as a source of genetic material or life forms has *never* been observed. Creation ex nihilo as a source of genetic material or life forms has *never* been observed. I should have mentioned the importance of mechanism in the difference between evolutionary explanations and Design “interpretations” if I mentioned nothing else. Shame on me for leaving it out.
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"When I consider the brief span of my life, absorbed into the eternity before and after, the small space I occupy and which I see swallowed up in the infinite immensity of spaces of which I know nothing and which know nothing of me, I take fright and am amazed to see myself here rather than there: there is no reason for me to be here rather than there, now rather than then. Who put me here? By whose command and act were this time and place allotted to me? ... The eternal silence of these infinite spaces terrifies me."
(Pascal, Pensées, Fragment 230)
smijer
on April 29th, 2009
This is the sort of thinking that causes well-intentioned creationists to miss the boat. If they dealt with biology rather than obsessing over the philosophical or religious implications of it, they would figure out that they are tilting at windmills to deny the science.
rogermorris
on April 29th, 2009
Trouble is smijer, that neither side of the creation/evolution debate deal with the raw scientific data without interpreting in some way, and filtering the data through their own presuppositions and worldview. Everyone has a philosophy of science just as they have a broader philosophy of life – whether they know it (or admit it) or not. The brute scientific facts are neutral and are then filtered and interpreted by both sides, according to their presuppositions. You are not being honest if you deny that you use raw scientific data to support your own presuppositions.
Pure science and the Christian faith are not at odds. I, like countless other Christians who have been schooled in the biological sciences, are happy to accept issues of brute scientific fact – I accept current Big Bang cosmology, I accept current views on the age of the universe and the age of the earth. I accept the fossil record on face value. I would even go so far as to say that I am happy to accept natural selection processes within a species group as a response over time to environmental pressures (I see this all the time with things in my work like development of antibiotic resistance in bacterial populations).
But I don’t accept that the only interpretation of scientific facts in biology points towards blind macroevolutionary processes via natural selection leading to new species. That is ‘leap of faith’ in extrapolation of the scientific data, a result of the assumption that atheistic naturalism is necessarily the default position for all rational thinkers. I can see much in the brute facts of science that reflects purposeful design and fine-tuning.
So, it stands I think that the creation/evolution debate is a matter of philosophy of science, rather than the brute facts of science per se.
smijer
on April 30th, 2009
By way of response, let me just quote from a Christian candidate for a Texas district school board who I just read about yesterday (link). I stress that he is Christian and conservative to point out that his philosophical foundation is non-naturalistic and as different from my own as it is possible to get… yet he is absolutely correct when he says:
The older and deeper places of the Earth hold the remains of primitive creatures which increase in variety and complexity as the hand of geological time winds forward. The DNA of our very bodies tells the history (within mutations of long silenced genes and the remnants of ancient viral intrusions) of our separation by degrees from other creatures of the Earth in a common descent. Imposing a false ambiguity on these facts makes mockery of the precious drops of knowledge which mankind has slowly wrung out of the natural world. It is pure scientific retreat, not progress.
In other words, yes – there are philosophical reasons for searching to avoid the otherwise unavoidable conclusion of universal common descent, but that doesn’t mean that assent to them is necessarily only philosophical. Some philosophy of science is inescapable if we are to do it, but the same philosophy of science that supports the laws of motion, whether classically derived or more accurately through quantum mechanics and relativity, leads inexorably to acceptance of universal common descent.
Put yet another way, the creation / evolution debate is a matter of philosophy of religion against the brute facts of science per se.
rogermorris
on April 30th, 2009
Sorry smijer, I don’t agree with your fideistic assumptions.
i) The Texas fellow you quote seems to hold one of at least three viewpoints within theists regarding how to interpret scientific data and fossil records. At best he may be a theistic evolutionist (which I’ve already indicated to be inconsistent and syncretistic). At worst he is confused and has a muddled, inconsistent and irrational worldview. He may nominally identify as Christian but have swallowed (by peer group osmotic pressure) what he has been brainwashed to believe – that Darwinian evolution is the default interpretation of current scientific data. Either way, in my mind, his worldview seems inconsistent, syncretistic and irrational.
In any case observe similarities in DNA and increasing complexities of DNA within gradually increasingly complex species does not at all automatically make the cause of this Darwinian evolutionary processes, driven by blind natural selection. It can just as easily be explained by intelligent design and efficiency, utilising functional basic DNA templates which are then altered in various manners to allow the development and creation of increasingly complex species. It makes a great amount of sense to use a basic successful design concept template and vary it minimally as required to produce the desired variability within species. Again it all comes down to presuppositions and how observed scientific data is interprete. In any case, Darwinianism still doesn’t adequately explain the origins of DNA itself de novo. Original researchers into the concept of ‘Biochemical evolution’ where DNA supposedly self-organised spontaneously from the random protein broth, have doubted and rejected their own original ideas (Kenyon, etc).
ii) “There are philosophical reasons for searching to avoid the otherwise unavoidable conclusion of universal common descent”
Smijer, it could be argued that you have just as strong philosophical motivations for searching to avoid the necessary metaphysical implications of considering the possibility that naturalism and physicalism is not the only explanation for what is observed in biology and cosmology. I expect you would want to avoid like the plague, any suggestion of a designer who transends his creation, space and time – that would mean you would have to reconsider your investment in atheistic naturalism and consider the possibility of a transcendent creator (and the risk that the Being in question is the God of the Bible). Cuts both ways my friend.
iii) “But the same philosophy of science that supports the laws of motion, whether classically derived or more accurately through quantum mechanics and relativity, leads inexorably to acceptance of universal common descent”.
Smijer, another ‘quantum leap’ of faith on your part. Despite propaganda claiming universal acceptance of Darwinian evolution as the default position for all thinkers, there are still chasms of data deficiency which a naturalist must leap over with presupposition and blind assumption to reach this conclusion. I maintain, this is still only one of a number of possible interpretations of the data.
smijer
on April 30th, 2009
First and most vehemently, I must disagree with your assessment of Dr. Walker’s positions. I do not know him personally, but he is a regular denizen of a socially conservative web-site, professes Christianity and social conservatism – not a mixture many people would call “nominal” Christianity (nor is that of Francis Collins or Karl Giberson). His clear, concise, and eloquent statement of his beliefs mark them as his own, arrived at through honest scientific investigation – they do not bear the hallmarks of having been borrowed under “peer pressure”, but rather those of strong conviction. Perhaps his worldview is inconsistent, syncretistic, and irrational. He would be the rare human being if he possessed a wholly consistent and homogeneous worldview. That is neither here nor there. The question is whether a rational epistemology of nature, whether or not it is paired with an epistemology of revealed truth, is consistent with the empirical methods of discovery and the deductive and inductive methods of interpretation that yield the modern edifice of evolutionary thought.
Certainly his summary of the lines of evidence is incomplete and doesn’t lead necessarily to the greater conclusions of which we are certain – he is writing an eloquent exposition on his position, not a textbook on 150 years of research in a variety of fields of biology and paleontology.
Smijer, it could be argued that you have just as strong philosophical motivations for searching to avoid the necessary metaphysical implications of considering the possibility that naturalism and physicalism is not the only explanation for what is observed in biology and cosmology.
Perhaps it could be… but it isn’t about me, and my philosophical motivations. I do hold some philosphical positions that make a program rooted in spiritualistic assumptions problematic, but I won’t bore you with them. The philosophical underpinnings of science are the same whether discussing evolution, relativity, the age of the earh, or the germ theory of disease. It is these philosophical underpinnings, and not grand “world views” which are essential. To avoid evolution, you must discount them.
You say that this is a ‘quantum’ leap on my part… A friendly riposte – I don’t think ‘quantum’ is used correctly there. In fact it is not. The only “interpretations” that are consistent with *all* the evidence are those of common descent on the one hand, and that a designer created life in order to fulfill the empirical demands of common descent on every level at which we are capable of looking at the evidence. In other words, our interpretive options, if we are to deal with all of the evidence, are the predictive and falsifiable option of common descent by evolution or the Omphalos Hypothesis that God designed life to fool us into thinking it was involved.
Sure, we can invoke “common design” to explain common DNA, but this hypothesis suffers from flaws:
1) it is post-hoc. We find that cytochrome c, for instance can be replaced across distantly related species. There is no reason to *expect* that the cytochrome c sequence will follow a phylogenetic pattern matching the phylogenetic tree known from the fossil record, modern morphology, biogeography, paleobiogeography, and all the rest. We might just as reasonably expect that God would use cytochrome C more similar between yeast and bacterium as between yeast and human. To explain the similarities as common design is simply an after the fact plea. Evolution, on the other hand predicts and demands that yeast and humans share a more similar molecular sequence.
2) It requires further post-hoc explanations, often more tenuous ones, to explain certain of the data. While God might have designed human and chimpanzee DNA similarly for similar purposes, it does not stand to reason that God would design a GULO pseudogene similar to all non-simian mammals active GULO gene (essential for synthesizing ascorbic acid), and design it to be held in common by only simian primates, with deviations falling along the otherwise established phylogenetic relationships between those simian primates. Common descent predicts the genetic data with little need for recourse to post-hoc explanations.
3) Each independent line of evidence points to common descent by evolution. Whether we are looking at molecular or DNA evidence, the bone structure of a whale’s fin compared to a terrestrial mammal’s hand and a bat’s wing, the fossil record that finds remains of organisms with the skeletal features of modern whales and limbs for walking terrestrially, the distribution of Koalas and Kangaroos that could thrive in similar habits worldwide only in Australia, patterns of antibiotic resistance in parasitic bacteria, or any of a host of other data points, we find predictions of common descent satisfied by the data, and we find that we are able to explain numerous and disparate pieces of data economically and elegantly under a single theory.
The Design hypothesis, on the other hand, struggles to catch up – having to conform data to fit the best you are able with across as many categories as you are able, when the fit already proceeds organically and naturally from evolution.
In other words – I cannot put it more succinctly than Dr. Walker: “Imposing a false ambiguity on these facts makes mockery of the precious drops of knowledge which mankind has slowly wrung out of the natural world.”
smijer
on April 30th, 2009
Unfortunately, I didn’t proof-read the above sufficiently before posting, but I hope you can get the meaning.
I did leave out one other very important point… that is the fact that evolution has a mechanism firmly known to work – it is observed. We know through observation one and only one method of the production of genetic material – that is through genetic reproduction, and we observe it ubiquitously and in uncountable quantities. We know through observation one source of genetic similarity and variability: within a family, within a population, within a species, and within a genus – that is through evolution. We see it ubiquitously and in uncountable quantities. “Design” as a source of genetic material or life forms has *never* been observed. Creation ex nihilo as a source of genetic material or life forms has *never* been observed. I should have mentioned the importance of mechanism in the difference between evolutionary explanations and Design “interpretations” if I mentioned nothing else. Shame on me for leaving it out.